Black Leg Miner

[David Dalton]

Anyone know who wrote the song Black Leg Miner which I
talk about in more detail on the thread
"Peg Norman for election!" on
nf.general,can.politics,alt.politics.socialism.democratic,rec.music.celtic

The song was the first that came to mind when I was thinking of
a possible trad song to modify or leave as is for an unofficial
campaign song for Canadian NDP leader Jack Layton. Because
it was the first that came to mind I speculate that maybe one
of his ancestors, not necessarily male, and if male not necessarily
direct paternal line and same last name, may have written it.
But that would only make sense if he had at least one
ancestor from County Durham in England, and maybe he
would know.

Aside: Ian Tyson related dirty joke: If I am lonely, who are
the four strong winds who blow lonely? (I know of
four women singers at least with a lot of hot air
between them.)

[Molly Mockford]

Post by David Dalton
Anyone know who wrote the song Black Leg Miner

My first instinct was Ewan McColl, but in fact on Mudcat I found:

"Found once only in tradition, so far as can be told; all variant forms
are recent and seem to derive from commercial recordings. See
THE BLACKLEG MINERS Text and tune from A. L. Lloyd, Folksong in
England."

[Water of Tyne]

The sunbect of 'Blackleg Miner' is the coalfields of south-east
Northumberland, not Durham. Not sure who wrote it, though.

[Patrick Nethercot (ngs)]

I thought that one was of Welsh origin.

[Chris Ryall]

David Dalton wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

The song was the first that came to mind when I was thinking of a
possible trad song to modify or leave as is for an unofficial campaign
song for Canadian NDP leader Jack Layton. Because it was the first
that came to mind I speculate that maybe one of his ancestors, not
necessarily male, and if male not necessarily direct paternal line and
same last name, may have written it. But that would only make sense if
he had at least one ancestor from County Durham in England, and maybe
he would know.

Might still not make a lot of sense as Deleval and Seghill, mentioned in
the song are both in Northumberland, about 10 miles North of the Tyne.

You can look up these parishes on http://www.census.pro.gov.uk/ to seek
the paternal names but AFAIK Layton is not a big local name - tends to
be southern English.

[Roger Gawley]

Post by Chris Ryall
David Dalton wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

The song was the first that came to mind when I was thinking of a
possible trad song to modify or leave as is for an unofficial campaign
song for Canadian NDP leader Jack Layton. Because it was the first
that came to mind I speculate that maybe one of his ancestors, not
necessarily male, and if male not necessarily direct paternal line and
same last name, may have written it. But that would only make sense if
he had at least one ancestor from County Durham in England, and maybe
he would know.

Might still not make a lot of sense as Deleval and Seghill, mentioned in
the song are both in Northumberland, about 10 miles North of the Tyne.

Very true but the songs seems to have been collected (once only as already
noted) in Bishop Auckland, which is in county Durham. Now where did I read
that? Roger

Post by Chris Ryall
You can look up these parishes on http://www.census.pro.gov.uk/ to seek
the paternal names but AFAIK Layton is not a big local name - tends to
be southern English.
--
Chris Ryall Wirral-UK
("cut out" spamtrap to email me)

[Chris Rockcliffe]

David Dalton10/6/04 2:00 AM

Post by David Dalton
Anyone know who wrote the song Black Leg Miner which I
talk about in more detail on the thread
"Peg Norman for election!" on
nf.general,can.politics,alt.politics.socialism.democratic,rec.music.celtic

I understand it is in the public domain as a song - but the popular tune may
not be the original tune and may predate the words. The words were written
at the time of the 1844 strike - about the strike action and strike breakers
of the then fairly newly-formed Northumberland and Durham Union of
coalminers.

This was where the term *blackleg* for a strike breaker originated. Theirs
was the first effective modern style trade union (leading to the formation
of the NUM) and the first moderately successful strike action by miners.
That strike was a test of the Union's power.

The strike was in relation to a further forced 15% wage cut (on the back of
a previous 10% cut) but also over other working conditions and the danger of
single-shaft workings. Lord Londonderry led the mine owners in defiance.
The miners had much support in Parliament including a strange but of course
tacit supporter in the shape of Prince Albert regarding mine safety.

Many hundreds of even poorer Irish non-union workers with little or no
mining experience were shipped in by Londonderry (a major Durham coalowner
and powerful voice at that time in the House of Lords) to help break the
strike.

Scabs were given additional benefits including free tools and the tied
miners' cottages of evicted striking miners. They were given protection by
local sheriffs (riding horses with batons) and other private army thugs and
The Union lost the fight after 3 months. (nothing is new!)

The song relates to the hatred and threats towards Irish blackleg
strike-breakers. The greatest area of blackleg trouble was in
Northumberland - around Cramlington, Burradon, Seghill, Hartley and Seaton
Delaval area - but of course not confined just to those places.

Many violent pitched battles between miners and blacklegs - armed with pitch
forks and pick-axes - involved serious injury and death and the worst day in
Northumberland involved over 2,500 miners and scabs in outright war. The
poor fighting the even poorer while the rich looked on eh?

Many blacklegs stayed - and with nothing to return to in Ireland anyway -
except poverty and famine - they could at least get unskilled work in the
then fastest growing industry.

I went to school with many of the descendants of this particular wave of
Northumberland's Irish immigrant families and there was still a hint of
animosity about the past still existing in the 1950s and 60s.

It is a serious and historical dialect ballad (many of its lines stem from
the threatening graffiti of the time). But it has been turned into a jolly
little folk tune - usually played and sung quite fast - by those without a
clue as to its real social meaning or historical context. But that's the
folk process in action I guess.

(This was meant to be a short answer!)

CR

[Patrick Nethercot (ngs)]

Chris

Thanks for that. Very interesting. [Welsh indeed :-( ]

[David Dalton]

Great, thanks a lot. And Fear of Drinking on their Get on With It
recording said the song was from County Durham which is why I
posted to the Durham newsgroup but it seems that it is almost
certainly of Northumberland origin. (Also Fear of Drinking was
a Vancouver band and its member Tim Readman, a Geordie
living in Vancouver, now has a solo career.)

David

[Chris Ryall]

Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
This was where the term *blackleg* for a strike breaker originated.

You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

In the 80's I did locums for the local GP and remember the terraces of
Seghill and Burradon well. While I thought of the song (which I had sung
often), the history never came up. I guess the focus was properly on
Grandma's cough.

[Patrick Nethercot (ngs)]

Post by Chris Ryall
You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

Miners who worked when others were on strike had to be careful not to be
found out as they travelled home from the pit. They would wash their
hands and face etc and then go home. But if they were stopped and
challenged, they would be told to roll up their trouser legs, where the
black coal would still be on their legs...

[Joe Fineman]

Post by Chris Ryall
You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had
(culturally) black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

The OED professes not to.

[Jos]

Brittish folkrock band Steeleye Span recorded the song on their first album
"Hark the village wait" in 1970.

Post by Joe Fineman

Post by Chris Ryall
You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had
(culturally) black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

The OED professes not to.
--
||: A carnivorous mammal is bound to have mixed feelings about :||
||: any helpless animal. :||

[Chris Ryall]

Post by Jos

Post by Chris Ryall
You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had
(culturally) black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

The OED professes not to. --- Joe Fineman

Jos added ...

Post by Jos
Brittish folkrock band Steeleye Span recorded the song on their first album
"Hark the village wait" in 1970.

Ah yes, I recall Maddy wore black tights at the launch contact.

Must tell the OED (!)

[Chris Ryall]

Post by Jos

Post by Chris Ryall
You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had
(culturally) black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

The OED professes not to. --- Joe Fineman

Jos added ...

Post by Jos
Brittish folkrock band Steeleye Span recorded the song on their first album
"Hark the village wait" in 1970.

Ah yes, I recall Maddy wore black tights at the launch concert. :))

Must tell the OED (!)

["KGB" (KGB)]

Post by Chris Ryall
Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
This was where the term *blackleg* for a strike breaker originated.

You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

Hi

As I understand it, it was obvious if somebody had been working down
the mine and hence was a strikebreaker because until he had arrived
home and had a bath (no pithead baths in those days), his legs were
black with coaldust.

I am not sure where or when (certainly a long time ago) I first heard
that explanation but it would make sense.

Regards
KGB

[Jacey Bedford]

Post by "KGB" (KGB)

Post by Chris Ryall
Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
This was where the term *blackleg* for a strike breaker originated.

You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

Hi
As I understand it, it was obvious if somebody had been working down
the mine and hence was a strikebreaker because until he had arrived
home and had a bath (no pithead baths in those days), his legs were
black with coaldust.

But - every bit of him would be black with coal dust - why specify his
legs? And the local miners (when working) would have been equally
covered in coal dust, so seeing men coming up from their shift covered
in the black stuff would not be likely to raise particular comments
about black legs.

Jacey

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Jacey Bedford12/6/04 11:55 AM

Post by Jacey Bedford

Post by "KGB" (KGB)

Post by Chris Ryall
Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
This was where the term *blackleg* for a strike breaker originated.

You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

Hi
As I understand it, it was obvious if somebody had been working down
the mine and hence was a strikebreaker because until he had arrived
home and had a bath (no pithead baths in those days), his legs were
black with coaldust.

But - every bit of him would be black with coal dust - why specify his
legs? And the local miners (when working) would have been equally
covered in coal dust, so seeing men coming up from their shift covered
in the black stuff would not be likely to raise particular comments
about black legs.

Hi Jacey,

The object of the strike was to shut down coal production to force a change
of policy on wages and conditions. Anyone working (covered with coal dust)
was a strike breaker - whether drafted in or non union. They were the enemy
of the vast majority in a fiercely contested battle.

Blacklegs or scabs travelled to and from work mostly in groups, often with
protection by horse riders armed with batons. There were no pit head baths
but crude washing in a bucket of water of exposed head and hands at least
made it less obvious that they'd been underground.

Coal dust permeates every crevice and fold and wrinkle of skin. As a
youngster I'd see coal miners returning from a shift - hewers had huge
legging and knee pads strapped on with their big boots making a real clatter
with their heavy steel caps and tips. They were completely black with dust
and looking like the Black and While Minstrels. Their eyes and occasionally
their teeth shone white.

CR

["KGB" (KGB)]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:55:11 +0100, Jacey Bedford

Post by Jacey Bedford

Post by "KGB" (KGB)

Post by Chris Ryall
Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
This was where the term *blackleg* for a strike breaker originated.

You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

Hi
As I understand it, it was obvious if somebody had been working down
the mine and hence was a strikebreaker because until he had arrived
home and had a bath (no pithead baths in those days), his legs were
black with coaldust.

But - every bit of him would be black with coal dust - why specify his
legs? And the local miners (when working) would have been equally
covered in coal dust, so seeing men coming up from their shift covered
in the black stuff would not be likely to raise particular comments
about black legs.

Hi

Presumably, if they tried to disguise their all over black appearance
by wearing a different coat to go home in, then the only visible black
bit would be the legs.

The "non-blackleg" miners wouldn't be working so wouldn't be black.

Regards

P.S. Is the term blackleg legally allowed in this politically correct
world - shouldn't it be "ethnic-minoritylegs"?? 8^)


KGB

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Chris Ryall10/6/04 8:40 PM

Post by Chris Ryall
Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
This was where the term *blackleg* for a strike breaker originated.

You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

I've also often wondered from where *blacklegs* - used as a term of abuse -
originated.

The Cornish thing is interesting - and may well be another origin. Perhaps
ex tin and lead miners headed for the coal mines and turned up dressed in
the leggings you mention and that term was then re-used in a more negative
fashion.

Coalminers always came home from a long shift filthy dirty. Coal mines were
filthy, hot, airless, sometimes gaseous, dusty and damp places with frequent
flooding, occasional use of explosives, rock falls, no clean water, raw
sewage (no toilet facilities).

Coal dust is not good for humans. Cleanliness was paramount. In 1844 they
bathed mostly every day at home in a tin bath in front of a coal fire in
lukewarm water taken from a local hand pump and warmed in a cauldron.

Coal dust didn't just get into the lungs, but was absorbed with sweat
through every skin pores, under the finger and toe nails, into the eyes and
into the bloodstream. Dirty clothing - bathed in sweat and coal dirt caused
rashes and boils and carbuncles. Septicaemia amongst the many ailments was
not uncommon.

In those days most NE coalminers married young and the young wives washed
their work wear almost daily to make it last and keep it useable and when
their kids went into mining from age 9 or 10, their mothers also washed
their stuff. Clothes washing was a very frequent task.

Women and children under the age of 10 had been banned from mining work a
few years earlier than this song. But children as young as 8 still went
down if they could get away with it. The Hartley Disaster (in that same
small area) of Jan 1862 (18 years after the song was written) shows many
children of, 9 and 10 and upwards died.

Because wet coal dust rots cotton and woollen clothing quickly, it was
always washed ASAP to help make it last a bit longer. Miners started their
shift cleaned up and with relatively clean clothing - most importantly clean
shirts, clean neckerchief (could be used as a facemask in emergencies), and
old clean waistcoats.

Established coalminers in each area had a kind of unofficial uniform mode of
practical dress - scruffy, but nevertheless worn with a certain pride.

The drafted *blacklegs* were mostly (there were a few local strike breakers
too and much vilified) younger single men, unmarried or unaccompanied by
their womenfolk. They often lacked any washing facilities, so were often
dirty and unwashed for days at a time and wore the same already dirty
unwashed shirts to work.

They talked differently, looked differently and worked mostly at night;
travelled in groups; were under protection to and from the pit head; and
under scrutiny constantly by both sides.

Scabs carried old odd tools, old and often useless safety lamps and were
easily spotted by those who despised them as scabs. Both sides also had
their planted spies and traitors.

Exactly how and when *blackleg* came to be used as a term of abuse is a bit
less clear. I've always thought it was simple - Miners on strike were clean
and those who were working were dirty and black with coal. In short,
blacklegs were dirty, so it is a fitting name. If your legs were black with
coal dust, you were a scab.

CR

[Chris Ryall]

Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
Coal dust didn't just get into the lungs, but was absorbed with sweat
through every skin pores, under the finger and toe nails, into the eyes
and into the bloodstream.

Lungs yes, nails yes, eyes - well into the conjuctival sacks yes but in
the eyeball is a new one on me. With the sweat into pores? No way.
However colliers did get skin inclusions in the same way hairdressers do
(hair pushed into the skin).

Old N/E miners always had blacked speckled 'tattoos' of coal on extensor
surfaces of knees and elbows particularly. sometimes more extensively
although I understood this was from drilling/blasting rather than
crawling. And in the skin of the back. One mine my father knew was
working an 18 inch seam - that's an 18 inch ceiling!

Blackleg = having worked? I don't buy it. Such a term would make all
miners blacklegs, but the term for a non strike joiner was 'scab'

Blacklegs were imported workers from elsewhere. There will be a reason.

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Chris Ryall11/6/04 12:10 PM

An 18 inch seam = 18 inch deep seam of coal? Many seams in the NE coalfield
were/are 18 inches and less but can extend for several square miles like
that. A man couldn't work in 18 inches but often seams were worked in 24+
inches -and even more often in 36 inch heights. In 1844 it was done with
hand picks

Ceiling height varied with rock type, rock density, ceiling integrity,
geological strata, fault lines, the position of underground fresh water
reservoirs, hydrocarbon related saltwater reservoirs, etc etc

Coalmining in 1844 was very different than today or even 40 or 80 years ago.
They had reached 1,000 feet depths with the available knowledge and steam
technology by then.

I went down a few coal mines in the 1960's, (it was scary and
claustrophobic) but it must have been terrifying back in those days of
1840's. Little power and no electricity. Oil and safety lamps and pit
ponies with a growing number of new steam-driven water pumps and cages.
It's amazing to contemplate what it must have all been like to work back
then.

Miners constantly drew blood from small cuts grazes and injuries where coal
dust could enter the bloodstream. I'm not expert on medical matters, so
I'll only say that regular skin absorption of coal dust was something the
old miners I talked to (amongst friends and family way back and long since
dead sadly) believed was actually always happening to them.

Post by Chris Ryall
Blackleg = having worked?

Yes, all strike breakers surely?

Post by Chris Ryall
I don't buy it. Such a term would make all
miners blacklegs,

Not during a prolonged strike lasting 3+ months when the only local miners
with any coal dust on them were strike-breakers.

Post by Chris Ryall
but the term for a non strike joiner was 'scab'

Scab is a recent adopted slang word though. We're talking 1844 here. I
don't know the exact origins of *scab* in this context either, but I believe
it is much more recent (perhaps USA) and also in use still in the USA and
elsewhere.

I don't think *scab* was ever used in this context in 1844. It certainly
isn't in this song and I don't think I've ever seen it in any mining song of
that period or earlier OR for many years later.

Post by Chris Ryall
Blacklegs were imported workers from elsewhere. There will be a reason.

My own history recollection is a bit different then.

Not all *blacklegs* were drafted-in workers but most were and not all men in
every NE mine immediately joined the new union - quite a few didn't. In
1844, there were still those who refused to strike and also those who
refused to join the union.

Some of the smaller family-owned or collectively owned mines on non-estate
owned land also refused to cut wages - or by the same amount - or join with
the other coal owners in universal wage cuts; or to join in either with the
strike; or the union actions. It caused all kinds of trouble.

That strike and several others that followed in later years separated
families and broke brother from brothers and fathers from sons. Those
people were also referred to as blacklegs. Again this stems from my own
reading and conversations with old miners amongst friends and family.

CR

[Julian Flood]

Post by Chris Ryall
One mine my father knew was
working an 18 inch seam - that's an 18 inch ceiling!

Beamish museum has a mine exhibit: the seam was so low that, if you took
your shovel in the wrong way up, you couldn't turn it over.

JF

[Dominic Cronin]

Post by Chris Ryall
Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
This was where the term *blackleg* for a strike breaker originated.

You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

Well presumably moleskin.

[celtic trimmed as irrelevant, geordie added as relevant]
(for the benefit of u.l.g - we've already noted that Seghill/Delaval
is Northumberland not Durham - then Chris reckoned that the blacklegs
in question were Irish.)

[phil henry]

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:24:27 +0200, Dominic Cronin

Post by Dominic Cronin

Post by Chris Ryall
Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
This was where the term *blackleg* for a strike breaker originated.

You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

Well presumably moleskin.
[celtic trimmed as irrelevant, geordie added as relevant]
(for the benefit of u.l.g - we've already noted that Seghill/Delaval
is Northumberland not Durham - then Chris reckoned that the blacklegs
in question were Irish.)

Brewer says that, while noting its current meaning, it was an old name
for a swindler, especially at cards or races.

[George Hawes]

In message <***@4ax.com>
phil henry <***@telcore.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Someone commented on Steeleye recording this on their first album.
Just for the record, they also sang it to open their set when we saw them
during the miners strike to end all (UK) mining industries . . .

G.

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Dominic Cronin11/6/04 7:24 PM

Post by Dominic Cronin

Post by Chris Ryall
Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
This was where the term *blackleg* for a strike breaker originated.

You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

Well presumably moleskin.
[Celtic trimmed as irrelevant, Geordie added as relevant]
(for the benefit of u.l.g - we've already noted that Seghill/Delaval
is Northumberland not Durham - then Chris reckoned that the blacklegs
in question were Irish.)

Hi Dom,

Songs like these are historical documents themselves and it helps to
understand their wider context to more fully appreciate the sentiments.
It's a historical fact that large numbers of Irish were brought in to the NE
coal industry in 1844 to help break the strike by Londonderry and others.

The blacklegs were provided with new work clothes - including moleskin
(heavy cotton) trousers and boots and also tools. Blacklegs were given tied
houses and striker's families evicted.

In those days, coal miners had to buy their own clothing, headwear,
footwear, tools and safety lamps, so that was yet another reason for anger
and resentment. It was simple political muscle-flexing to show who was
boss.

It was also the dawning of the modern trade union movement and a major
political storm blew up about it. It raised awareness of unions and planted
the seeds of real union power.

Many of the striking miners already here were also 1st and 2nd generation
Irish from the Napoleonic and post Napoleonic era - first quarter of the
century - when the really deep mines were first sunk (with German help) to
reach previously unknown deep seams.

Many more Irish came seeking mining work after one famine or another all
around the 2nd quarter of the 19th century. The N.E. had a large growing
Irish catholic population and as a result after Catholic Emancipation (1829)
many new churches were built in the NE in mid 19th century as further
evidence of the arrival of Irish then.

Steam was then king and Londonderry and others were all investing huge sums
in putting in new steam driven pumps and cage winding engines to speed
productivity; planning and building local steam railways to transport coal
more quickly from coastal mines to the ports; and building new staithes to
fill larger vessels. They were also expanding existing mines and sinking new
and deeper shafts all over the NE.

The strike bit hard at cash flow and coal profits. The mines were expanding
and demand for coal was growing. The enforced wage cuts were to help pay
for it all. But working class lives were cheap enough then.

It mattered not to Londonderry - a multi millionaire and the most vociferous
anti-trade union Lord in the House, that the very poor died or were injured
in street battles in the heat of the political process, or how many of them
virtually starved, as long as he and his cronies won the day - which
effectively they did anyway.

Londonderry wanted the British army to be involved and to shoot on sight
what we later called pickets and those barracking and attacking blacklegs.
Even Queen Victoria - via her beloved Prince Albert's influence no doubt -
asked questions and spoke out against Londonderry to the then Prime Minister
Sir Robert Peel. This was of course the primary era of huge reform,
Victorian order, Christian values and respectability.

It was reported that, such was the hateful venom that Londonderry spouted in
the House, that he scored own goals with the more liberal and slightly
leftish-leaning, Christian-thinking Lords and MPs.

The dispute had a positive side because it opened up wider discussions and
debate in Parliament about many aspects of coalmining and its working
conditions - and also conditions in other industries and the plight of the
working classes - accelerating discussion which might otherwise never have
been aired for years and years.

Inadvertently, in the longer term, Lord Londonderry and his supporters
helped the striking miner's wider cause enormously.

CR

[John F]

Post by Chris Ryall
You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

As I always understood it, legs get black when you work down a coal
mine, so it was easy to tell who was working during a strike.


John F

[joe parkin]

Post by John F

Post by Chris Ryall
You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

As I always understood it, legs get black when you work down a coal
mine, so it was easy to tell who was working during a strike.

Everywhere gets black when you work down a coalmine, why do you think
the legs are targeted?

[joe parkin]

Post by John F

Post by Chris Ryall
You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

As I always understood it, legs get black when you work down a coal
mine, so it was easy to tell who was working during a strike.

Just a question, if a person gets a shower after work. there is one way
to prove he has worked underground, any takers?

[Andrew Jackson]

Post by joe parkin
Just a question, if a person gets a shower after work. there is one way
to prove he has worked underground, any takers?

Check his timesheet?

[joe parkin]

Post by Andrew Jackson

Post by joe parkin
Just a question, if a person gets a shower after work. there is one way
to prove he has worked underground, any takers?

Check his timesheet?

check his spit.

[Chris Rockcliffe]

joe parkin12/6/04 10:38 AM

Post by joe parkin

Post by John F

Post by Chris Ryall
You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?

As I always understood it, legs get black when you work down a coal
mine, so it was easy to tell who was working during a strike.

Just a question, if a person gets a shower after work. there is one way
to prove he has worked underground, any takers?

You hold a cut throat razor near his testicles and ask him nicely?

CR

[Chris Ryall]

Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
You hold a cut throat razor near his testicles and ask him nicely?

now that's more in the style of the song!

[Pete Loud]

In the first half of the 1800 there was 'colony' of Cornish tin miners
living in Cramlington. Whether they were brought in as scabs and wore black
leggings I don't know.

Ashamedly, I suspect that my Great Great Great Grandfather was one of them.

Cheers,


Pete Loud

Post by Chris Ryall
Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
This was where the term *blackleg* for a strike breaker originated.

You seem to have covered every issue except the origin of the term
'blackleg'. I was told that they were Cornishmen and had (culturally)
black leggings of some kind. Anyone know?
In the 80's I did locums for the local GP and remember the terraces of
Seghill and Burradon well. While I thought of the song (which I had sung
often), the history never came up. I guess the focus was properly on
Grandma's cough.
--
Chris Ryall Wirral-UK
("cut out" spamtrap to email me)

[Jacey Bedford]

Post by Pete Loud
In the first half of the 1800 there was 'colony' of Cornish tin miners
living in Cramlington. Whether they were brought in as scabs and wore black
leggings I don't know.
Ashamedly, I suspect that my Great Great Great Grandfather was one of them.

I wonder if my Cornish tin-mining great-great-grandfather and my
great-grandfather came up to Yorkshire for that purpose. I wonder if
there were any pit disputes in Leeds of Castleford around 1860 - 1870.

My great-grandfather, Benjamin James Randal Fletcher, was a miner born
in St Ives in Cornwall, but his father, Fletcher Fletcher (so good they
named him twice) was a pit deputy living in Leeds in the earliest
documentation I can find. I can't trace birth certificates for either
man - just a marriage certificate for Benjamin which has his age and
place of birth and his father's occupation. Still looking.

Maybe if old Fletch was a pit deputy - he wasn't a scab/blackleg or
otherwise a strike breaker (she says hopefully.)

My other great-great-grandfather was Sam Robinson who was pit deputy at
Allerton Bywater Colliery.

Jacey

[Chris Ryall]

Jacey Bedford wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Jacey Bedford
I wonder if my Cornish tin-mining great-great-grandfather and my
great-grandfather came up to Yorkshire for that purpose.

It's a long way .. He was probably after brass rather than tin.

Post by Jacey Bedford
I wonder if there were any pit disputes in Leeds of Castleford around
1860 - 1870.

Happen! <Bedford specific stuff trimmed>

[George Hawes]

Post by Chris Ryall
Jacey Bedford wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Post by Jacey Bedford
I wonder if my Cornish tin-mining great-great-grandfather and my
great-grandfather came up to Yorkshire for that purpose.

It's a long way .. He was probably after brass rather than tin.

Doesn't one of the Tim Hart & Maddy Prior LPs (i.e. of them working as a
duo) have a song about Cornish miners migrating in search of work? As I
recall there's no suggestion of strikebreaking in that song . . .

G.

[Abby Sale]

(Note: I replied to all 4 groups because what _I_ have to say is so _very_
important, but I actually only subscribe to r.m.f at this time.)

Per Ewan MacColl on _Saturday Night at the Bull and Mouth_, Folkways LP
1978 & CD (worth buying if only for the much-too-rarely-recorded bawdy
version of "Our Good Man" {"X Nights Drunk"}):

"The term 'blackleg' was originally used to describe racehorse swindlers
and gamblers who betted [sic] without intending to pay their losses, and
is thought to allude to the legs of a 'rook,' another name for a swindler.
Since 1865 it has become the generally accepted term for a scab or
strikebreaker. The hatred and contempt of organized workers for those who
desert to the enemy is perfectly expressed in this hard-hitting song from
County Durham."

Partridge, _A Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English_ agrees
(close enough, it may be MacColl's source) and adds the source (1771)
_may_ relate to such swindlers appearing in black boots. (Etc)

The connection seems to be something like "a non-participant."

Joe, I _told_ you...throw away that useless OED. I understand you likely
paid $1,500 for it And some reckon it has some value but it's dead useless
when it comes to folk song/lore.

Chris - I'm quoting the entire post because it gives so much good
information. What is (are) the primary source(s)? Not to refute, just
that it's been an Unknown for so long.

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:15:05 +0100, Chris Rockcliffe

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
David Dalton10/6/04 2:00 AM

Post by David Dalton
Anyone know who wrote the song Black Leg Miner which I
talk about in more detail on the thread
"Peg Norman for election!" on
nf.general,can.politics,alt.politics.socialism.democratic,rec.music.celtic

I understand it is in the public domain as a song - but the popular tune may
not be the original tune and may predate the words. The words were written
at the time of the 1844 strike - about the strike action and strike breakers
of the then fairly newly-formed Northumberland and Durham Union of
coalminers.
This was where the term *blackleg* for a strike breaker originated. Theirs
was the first effective modern style trade union (leading to the formation
of the NUM) and the first moderately successful strike action by miners.
That strike was a test of the Union's power.
The strike was in relation to a further forced 15% wage cut (on the back of
a previous 10% cut) but also over other working conditions and the danger of
single-shaft workings. Lord Londonderry led the mine owners in defiance.
The miners had much support in Parliament including a strange but of course
tacit supporter in the shape of Prince Albert regarding mine safety.
Many hundreds of even poorer Irish non-union workers with little or no
mining experience were shipped in by Londonderry (a major Durham coalowner
and powerful voice at that time in the House of Lords) to help break the
strike.
Scabs were given additional benefits including free tools and the tied
miners' cottages of evicted striking miners. They were given protection by
local sheriffs (riding horses with batons) and other private army thugs and
The Union lost the fight after 3 months. (nothing is new!)
The song relates to the hatred and threats towards Irish blackleg
strike-breakers. The greatest area of blackleg trouble was in
Northumberland - around Cramlington, Burradon, Seghill, Hartley and Seaton
Delaval area - but of course not confined just to those places.
Many violent pitched battles between miners and blacklegs - armed with pitch
forks and pick-axes - involved serious injury and death and the worst day in
Northumberland involved over 2,500 miners and scabs in outright war. The
poor fighting the even poorer while the rich looked on eh?
Many blacklegs stayed - and with nothing to return to in Ireland anyway -
except poverty and famine - they could at least get unskilled work in the
then fastest growing industry.
I went to school with many of the descendants of this particular wave of
Northumberland's Irish immigrant families and there was still a hint of
animosity about the past still existing in the 1950s and 60s.
It is a serious and historical dialect ballad (many of its lines stem from
the threatening graffiti of the time). But it has been turned into a jolly
little folk tune - usually played and sung quite fast - by those without a
clue as to its real social meaning or historical context. But that's the
folk process in action I guess.
(This was meant to be a short answer!)
CR

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
Boycott South Carolina!
http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Abby Sale11/6/04 2:41 PM

Post by Abby Sale
Chris - I'm quoting the entire post because it gives so much good
information. What is (are) the primary source(s)? Not to refute, just
that it's been an Unknown for so long.

I think the term *Blackleg* has been helped in its survival and continued
referral by this particular popular folk song/tune.

As for the sources:

The list of books, pamphlets, chapters, notes and snippets I've read would
fill a massive file. I do know a bit about it but I am no expert. No.

There is not one definitive source for information like this - read as much
as you can about anything and ask questions and you'll get answers. I think
I may have a copy of a post I sent someone many years ago with such a mining
ref. list, but that was 2/3 computers ago at least.

I have been reading about; talking about; learning about; singing and
performing about - coal mining off and on since I was a child and in early
teens. Coal dust was everywhere in my childhood and the local industrial
landscape was fascinating to me - a place where I spent hours painting and
drawing.

There were 7 active collieries within a three mile radius of our home and a
port which exported several millions of tons a year. Loading and trimming
went on day and night dictated by the tides and the constant noise of wagon
drops into hoppers and shunting of coal wagons on the staithes.

The union action of this song (S'Delaval, Hartley, Seghill etc) originates
from pit village some 4/5 miles from where I was brought up and lived for my
first 20 years. None of it exists now - and little trace remains of any of
it.

These days the Internet is a great resource, but regurgitated information
can and does become distorted (as per Chinese whispers). It's scary when
someone quotes one's writings in a printed article or website or album
sleeve without one's knowledge - but it happens more and more to many
people.

It means that historical research on the net needs to be a bit broader - and
getting back to an original net-source - usually found with a bit of trying.

CR

[Joe Fineman]

Post by Abby Sale
Joe, I _told_ you...throw away that useless OED. I understand you
likely paid $1,500 for it

$300 on CD-ROM.

Post by Abby Sale
And some reckon it has some value but it's dead useless when it
comes to folk song/lore.

FWIW, it gives the "swindler" meaning, but declines to explain it or
to speculate on its connection with the "strikebreaker" meaning. Its
note on the former, which seems to me judicious, is

[As in other slang expressions, the origin of the name is lost: of
the various guesses current none seem worth notice.]

The word is also used for various diseases of livestock & plants (the
chief current use, to judge from Google). Perhaps the strikebreakers
are merely being called pests.

[Gwilym Calon]

Post by Joe Fineman

Post by Abby Sale
Joe, I _told_ you...throw away that useless OED. I understand you
likely paid $1,500 for it

$300 on CD-ROM.

Post by Abby Sale
And some reckon it has some value but it's dead useless when it
comes to folk song/lore.

FWIW, it gives the "swindler" meaning, but declines to explain it or
to speculate on its connection with the "strikebreaker" meaning. Its
note on the former, which seems to me judicious, is
[As in other slang expressions, the origin of the name is lost: of
the various guesses current none seem worth notice.]
The word is also used for various diseases of livestock & plants (the
chief current use, to judge from Google). Perhaps the strikebreakers
are merely being called pests.

The link to "swindlers" makes me think that it may imply "someone who reneges on
an agreement".

-------
GC

[John F]

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
Many blacklegs stayed - and with nothing to return to in Ireland anyway -
except poverty and famine - they could at least get unskilled work in the
then fastest growing industry.

No doubt the Irish addition contributed further to the dialect of the
region. I spent a year working in a small hospital in Newfoundland that
was not very far from an oil refinery. Many of the tankers had Geode
crews, and when one of them ended up in the hospital I (being from the
Yorkshire Dales)would be called in to translate. The hospital staff
mistakenly assumed that since I came from a short distance away from
them, I would be able to understand what they were saying! (Remembering
that even if I did understand them, I had to translate into Newfie).


John F

[John F]

Post by David Dalton
I was thinking of
a possible trad song to modify or leave as is for an unofficial
campaign song for Canadian NDP leader Jack Layton.

A song about strike breaking for an NDP campaign?


John

[Dai Crowther]

"David Dalton" <***@nfld.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: Anyone know who wrote the song Black Leg Miner which I
: talk about in more detail on the thread
:


I remember singing it at Chesterfield Labour Club in 1984 at a NUM/SOGAT
solidarity bash. Tony Benn sat next to me throughout the song,
listening intently. When I finished he asked me where the song
originated - before I could enlighten him he said that given the
references to place names he guessed that it was from Kentucky. I never
quite worked his reasoning out but made allowance for him because at the
end of a long and mighty get together he had managed to get through the
entire evening on two tin cupfuls of cold tea.


Dai Crowther.

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Dai Crowther15/6/04 12:44 AM

Post by Dai Crowther
: Anyone know who wrote the song Black Leg Miner which I
: talk about in more detail on the thread
I remember singing it at Chesterfield Labour Club in 1984 at a NUM/SOGAT
solidarity bash. Tony Benn sat next to me throughout the song,
listening intently. When I finished he asked me where the song
originated - before I could enlighten him he said that given the
references to place names he guessed that it was from Kentucky. I never
quite worked his reasoning out but made allowance for him because at the
end of a long and mighty get together he had managed to get through the
entire evening on two tin cupfuls of cold tea.

That's interesting. A very apt song to sing on the day.

Sung in Northumbrian dialect (as I've heard it so many times), it is
unmistakeably NE, but the Delaval ref. probably threw him -(local French
aristocratic family and coal owners after whom the place is named - Seaton
Delaval).

CR

[Chris Ryall]

Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Seaton Delaval

A lovely name, seeped in history. Sea, town, and Laval - a city in
Mayenne, in the Norman area at the 1st millenium.

The house is also a gem (Vanbrugh) indicating that the family had the
money at the right epoch (though presumably that their miners didn't).

However it was already old by the time of the strikes in discussion.

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Chris Ryall15/6/04 8:10 AM

Post by Chris Ryall
Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Seaton Delaval

A lovely name, seeped in history. Sea, town, and Laval - a city in
Mayenne, in the Norman area at the 1st millenium.
The house is also a gem (Vanbrugh) indicating that the family had the
money at the right epoch (though presumably that their miners didn't).
However it was already old by the time of the strikes in discussion.

My parents decided to organise a surprise 21 birthday do at Seaton Delaval
Hall for me (for a while they held those mediaeval style banquets there and
I'd enjoyed the previous one) and it was good fun. I was toasted by non
other than Ashington's golden footy brother Jackie Charlton.

To come back OT, the evening's high spot was some local folk entertainment
introduced by a really OTT MC. It included a male rapper sword dancer team
(help here Dom? Earsdon Rappers I think), a female choir singing a bunch of
Northumbrian songs and then a pair of fiddlers/North'n pipers on the local
scene - father/son called - IIRC - Liam and Nicol Caisley. Anybody remember
them? The son will be about 60 - 70 years old now - great players both on
both fiddle and pipes. The place has some fond memories.

CR

[Dominic Cronin]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:12:10 +0100, Chris Rockcliffe

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
Chris Ryall15/6/04 8:10 AM

Post by Chris Ryall
Chris Rockcliffe wrote on "Black Leg Miner"

Seaton Delaval

A lovely name, seeped in history. Sea, town, and Laval - a city in
Mayenne, in the Norman area at the 1st millenium.
The house is also a gem (Vanbrugh) indicating that the family had the
money at the right epoch (though presumably that their miners didn't).
However it was already old by the time of the strikes in discussion.

My parents decided to organise a surprise 21 birthday do at Seaton Delaval
Hall for me (for a while they held those mediaeval style banquets there and
I'd enjoyed the previous one) and it was good fun. I was toasted by non
other than Ashington's golden footy brother Jackie Charlton.
To come back OT, the evening's high spot was some local folk entertainment
introduced by a really OTT MC. It included a male rapper sword dancer team
(help here Dom? Earsdon Rappers I think),

Royal Earsdon are still around, but not very active nowadays I
suspect. http://www.rapper.org.uk/teams/nland.html